The State of Sales Development, with Becc Holland [Episode 825]

Becc Holland is founder and CEO of Flip the Script. On today’s episode we talk about the biggest challenges facing the sales development function, including some that perhaps are a bit counterintuitive. Like do many SaaS companies actually have too much pipeline? Plus, we dive into the topic of KPIs and try to sort out the useful metrics from the popular, but useless metrics.

Episode Transcript

Andy Paul: Welcome to the show.

Becc Holland: Thank you very much.

Andy Paul: When I say Becc, I’m thinking of like, you know, the musician, first time I saw it was like-

Becc Holland: That’s me, that’s me

Andy Paul: Was that the inspiration for shortening your name?

Becc Holland: Oh, no, they were inspired by me.

Andy Paul: Oh, I see. Okay, there you go.

Becc Holland: Actually, the band was named Becca, but then Rebecca originally, and then they decided to go to Becc Beer too. Same story.

Andy Paul: Becc Beer. I don’t think I know Becc Beer. Is that a Texas beer?

Becc Holland: Uh, I feel like every beer is a Texas beer to be quite frank.

Andy Paul: Yeah, well, there are some good beers down there. That’s for sure. So you’ve been hanging out in Texas during this whole pandemic?

Becc Holland: I actually have, yes. So I, I came home. Um, I typically live in the Bay Area, but I, uh, in San Francisco downtown, but I came home for quarantine, you know, because I decided I was starting to have a relationship with my kitchen appliances since I live alone. And I’m like, I’m going to burst into tears if I ever have to leave them, this is getting very Castaway very quickly. So I think I need to introduce myself to other people.

Andy Paul: And your parents were happy to have you back.

Becc Holland: Uh, it depends on the day

Andy Paul: was going to say, how long, how long did that last?

Becc Holland: Yeah. About 15 minutes. We got through half of dinner, half of dinner.

Andy Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that’s been a big challenge for a lot of people is yeah. Coming back home and then quaranting with your folks. And it’s like, seemed like a good idea, but now we’ve been together for two months and I’m ready to kill you.

Becc Holland: Yeah, exactly. Well, I, I think that the, um, the hierarchy struggle is all off, right? Because you know, you’re always going to be a kid whenever you come home, which is fine at Christmas, but then you have to learn how to be an adult when your mommy is doing your laundry, which is interesting.

Andy Paul: Yeah. You could do your own laundry.

Becc Holland: Yeah, that would be too difficult I feel like at this point

Andy Paul: Well, that might be disrupting the flow of things

Becc Holland: Exactly the ecosystem. I want to keep the ecosystem going.

Andy Paul: Yeah. That’s, that’s what my producer says as well. Um, so here’s a question for you is so, you know, you’ve gone home. What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned about yourself during the pandemic?

Becc Holland: Oh, that’s a good question. Um, I think the biggest lesson is that I need is that I, I truly need people. Around me. And I think I was there beforehand. Like I live alone, you know, and I’m obviously in tech. So like zoom was zoom was my day before and zoom is my day after. And I think, I didn’t realize how much interaction I got at work and, you know, different networking events, et cetera.

And after, and I’m like, Oh, I can do this thing at home alone. And then after like a week, there was one week where I didn’t open my front door, you know, because I was terrified. And I think that I’ve really deeply learned that it is, um, that I need people, um, you know, in my life to truly be happy.

Andy Paul: yeah. Well, I think a lot of people do I, to that point is it’s my belief that when it’s safe and when employers feel it’s safe and the people employees feel safe. People want to go back to the office. You know, I think that’s this idea that everybody is. Yeah. We’ve given you flexibility

Becc Holland: Right.

Andy Paul: To work from home and everybody’s served suddenly taking on this role of like a permanent gig employee to some degree. It’s like, well, that’s not what I want to do. I want to be in the office with my colleagues and my friends and yeah, go out for lunch and all those things.

Becc Holland: Yeah. And I think it, it cuts down whether we know it or not, it does cut down collaboration. Right. Because.

Andy Paul: Undoubtedly.

Becc Holland: Yeah, like there, there’s just no way around it. Right. You just lose some of you can walk over to Cindy’s desk and Cindy’s there and, you know, so you inherently just talk amongst yourselves. And so I think, I think that we’re, we’re coming to terms with that of, you know, maybe remote all the time. Isn’t what we crave on the, we crave a balance.

Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, the question will be whether employers feel that that’s more important than the savings on real estate, they might get from not bringing people back. But

Becc Holland: We’ll see where the benevolence lies. Right.

Andy Paul: Yeah, I’m not sure there isn’t any necessarily, but, uh, yeah.

Becc Holland: Right. I did think it was interesting. I was waiting cause you know, in Silicon Valley it’s like, uh, you know, we want to up each other, right? Like that’s, that’s what you do. And I don’t know if that’s that’s everywhere, but it’s certainly present there in the Bay. And so I was just waiting. I’m like, who’s going to pull the trigger on full time. Full time remote. And it’s like, yeah, it’s Slack. That went until October and it was Ooh. And then Google went all December and Ooh, and then Jack Dorsey comes in and he’s like permanent and I’m like that. And there it is.

one way to-

thank you Jack.

Andy Paul: to goose your earnings. Yeah, yeah,

Becc Holland: There it is.

Andy Paul: Yeah. I think very few employees. Yeah, this is great. Yeah. I want to stay at home while my kids, all my kids are possibly learning from home or, or, you know, coming back at two o’clock in the afternoon and yeah.

Becc Holland: Right. But interestingly, to say, uh, to say the least.

Andy Paul: Yeah. So before we talk about sales stuff is yeah. As I was learning about you is as you’ve done some serious good works. I mean, you’ve, you’ve gone to Haiti and Brazil and Mexico and other places. Tell us about, tell us about what you’re doing and some of those places, I mean, good works.

Becc Holland: Thank you. I actually have never been asked about that on, in, in, uh, any kind of content, but, um, I had a knack or not a kanck, but my parents, uh, one of them to send me to different countries growing up to make me and help me understand that not everyone lives like that.

Andy Paul: Hm

Becc Holland: So, and I am, I was a little. Not angry, but a little frustrated with it at the time of like, why do I have to say spend every single summer and Mexico, you know, with no friends and like it’s hot here and dusty.

But basically since I was 10, um, my parents, uh, with me, uh, would go down with our entire family and we would build, um, houses in poverty struck districts, uh, just across the border in Mexico. So we actually did Tecate, Juarez, Rio Bravo, Reynosa, et cetera. But I did that every summer, since I was 10. Um, and then.

Andy Paul: the entire summer. You had to go for a few weeks or what would you do?

Becc Holland: Yeah, knew a few weeks was the minimum. And then anywhere up to, I ended up doing it for eight or nine weeks at some stents, but I did it every summer since I was 10. And that kind of grew. Into, um, just a love for international, um, and a love for people and a love for, um, you know, enabling people and helping people.

Um, and I think it was pretty formative for me, but I ended up going to Haiti during, um, you know, everything that went on. I

Andy Paul: Earthquake

Becc Holland: yes. Yeah. So that was what, 2011, um, that, that happened and then got the opportunity. My brother went over to China for, um, a few years to be an English teacher. And, um, I got to go over there and help him for four months in total. Travel some in China, you know, and, uh, be with him in Fu Ching.

Andy Paul: Well it seemed like one of the more remote places though you went to was Manaus, though in Brazil.

Becc Holland: Yes. I forgot about that one.

Andy Paul: Talk about being in the middle of nowhere. So what, what were you doing there?

Becc Holland: Yeah. So, um, it was the same kind of, um, same kind of program, uh, with, um, Amazon Outreach was the name of them. And basically you got in a boat and you floated down the Amazon. This is gonna, this is gonna paint a picture that people are going to think I’m much better than I am by the way. It’s my fear. But you would get in a boat and you would, uh, traveled down the Amazon and you would give, um, medical relief supplies, et cetera, to cities that were on the Amazon. So that was a very interesting experience. So it got to do that for, um, I think it was a month in total that I, I did it.

Andy Paul: So you’re like on a good size boat or are you

Becc Holland: Yeah. mean, it’s not

Andy Paul: Small outboard motor boats or-

Becc Holland: Not exactly a, you know, um, luxury yacht or anything, but pretty good size boat. Um, yeah, so I got to do for about a month, but it’s very, very interesting experience. Each country, you know, obviously is very different. Um, but it was, it was a really formative experience and I actually got to, at onepoint I, um, flew standby to get there. And I wrote a book that I’ve never published called Standby in my experience doing that and what I learned even more so and the traveling to get there. Then I learned on, um, on, uh, the Amazon, but both were very formative for me.

Andy Paul: Well, tell us some of the stories about the travel that got you there. What did you learn on those?

Becc Holland: It broke me. It really broke me.

Andy Paul: Yeah. Tell us more.

Becc Holland: I, I think that it broke down for me of, I had, especially since I spent so much time, um, you know, you do a certain amount of quote unquote, good works for other people and you start thinking that you’re good. Um, somewhere in there because it gets kind of addictive, right. Of like, Oh, this makes me feel good whenever I give this money away or if I help someone et cetera.

And I think it was pretty formative for me to understand, to begin to understand that, um, You know, it makes you better than no one and be the people that you’re giving it to you are also no better than, and that we’re all given the right circumstances. Uh, you know, yeah. Right, exactly. So, um, that is a lifelong lesson for me, but it was ingrained in me on that trip.

No, that wasn’t the beginning necessarily, but, um, You know, the, the last 10 to 15 years for me have been a super formative in terms of, you know, understanding that a, that could be me and that be whenever someone does something that’s, I don’t necessarily think is whatever, ethical, right. Et cetera, that like, I have a litany that I have I’ve complied with as well. And so, um, you know, I need to need to back off and, and, um, take my judgment hat off that I so easily put on.

Andy Paul: Okay. So how does that translate into the work you’ve done on sales? Do you carry that with you?

Becc Holland: Um, I would say in terms of, uh, there’s two pieces, I would say the inclination or the love to enable at a bigger scale is from that time period,

Andy Paul: So you could help more people.

Becc Holland: Yes, wishing that I could help people. Um, and, uh, the second piece that I, I just covered of learning that. I am no better than others. I’m no lesser than others, but I’m no better than others too. That we’re all tied. You know? Um, I think has been, was very, very odd necessary for me, or is helpful for me coming into the business world because you know, sometimes people do things, bad things, right. They lie or take money from you or do whatever they’ve got to do to get a deal across the line. Um, and to understand beforehand that I, um, not only am capable of all of those things, but I have done all of those things is helpful to take on off my, um, you know, red, hot poker to others and only apply it to myself if I’m going to apply it.

Andy Paul: Well, that’s very interesting, as I was wondering if one of the things, um, as well that you sort of take away from it is especially working in the Valley, which is, uh, you know, there’s no shortage of money there. And the influence of money is, you know, working in these places where yes, there’s poverty, but to some degree, there’s people you’re not saying in the face of a disaster, but, you know, they’ve, they found happiness in their lives that’s not based on material things. Um, is that something you’ve carried with you as well? And it’s interesting how that runs up against sort of the culture you found in the Bay Area.

Becc Holland: Yeah. So I think there’s not necessarily, I did read a study at one point talking about the correlation of happiness and it’s like, well, how do you really know? What’s a, what’s it based on where we diving into, you know, like how would you test that? But, um, I do think there’s, there’s not much correlation between money and, uh, being truly satisfied and truly happy and fulfilled.

And, um, And, uh, the character that you’re building along the way to me, that’s one of the most rewarding things is when you are different and you notice that you’re different and you didn’t focus on that and it’s not fake, it’s real. And you’re like, Oh, Okay. I view that thing differently now. And so, um, I think that that’s one of the main esteem builders for people is, you know, your character and are you making progress and are you choosing to do something that’s a little more difficult, but it’s the right thing. And then are you telling no one about it? You know, it was the last piece, like, you know, the husband comes home or whatever, you know, are you posting that you bought your wife flowers or are you doing it for the real reasons, the right reasons. So that’s kind of the last step of, you know, once I do this thing, am I, um, keeping it to myself I think is, um, but one of the, yeah, one of the most rewarding things is noticing if you are, if you do have the luxury, noticing your character progress, um, Uh, the nuts that’s I don’t know. Yeah. I think it’s one of the only few things that there are, that are real.

Andy Paul: Well, I mean, my, I exactly am I my, yeah, I remember my parents teaching me when I was young. I was that, you know, at the end of the day, when you leave the world, the only thing you leave with is your character.

Becc Holland: Right. And I think cash can be an inhibitor to that sometimes. It doesn’t mean necessarily that you’re a bad person, full disclosure, anyone listening, but it can be preventative. Um, and I can kind of give you an example, uh, you know, When I went to college, I didn’t know how to do my own laundry.

Andy Paul: Not unusual. I think. Yeah.

Becc Holland: So, you know, my mom, uh, she enabled me. Right. But she also to a degree, and this is very normal, but disabled me because I didn’t know how to do my own laundry. Uh, very typical and normal, but you take that analogy to, um, you know, money. It’s like, Oh, okay. Well, if I am born into money, et cetera, it’s like, do I have to go through the things that build character and the answer is in some cases, no.

And so it can be harder from what I’ve seen for people with money, especially if it’s inherited. That’s why, and against runners that are your pace or faster because it builds you and it makes you kind of compete for that. And so it can take away that element of, Oh, I don’t have to struggle and don’t have to go through all these things and don’t have to build the character of finishing something that I started doing, what I say I’m going to do, you know, not talking about others, et cetera.

Like a lot of those lessons can be learned. So I think that those sometimes to a degree, those challenges are a luxury. They’re a gift because they help turn you into something that you weren’t necessarily before.

Andy Paul: And sort of falling on that question I’m always curious when I’m talking to people who hired people work for them. So how do you evaluate character and how important it is when you’re hiring people?

Becc Holland: Yeah. I mean, It’s it’s always important, right? Like people are just people. So, um, you know, I think it needs to, I, I read something the other day where someone was commenting on, um, that the top two things that they look for are number one is this person, has this person been a part of something that made them competitive early on like sports, music, whatever have you, where they had to compete from an early age?

And the latter, um, and more important or indicator of success and, and his case scenario was, did they overcome something? So whether that was, you know, not being born into money or, you know, maybe, um, they’re a person of color and they’ve, you know, encouraged them different. Circumstances where they were left out, um, you know, or, uh, addiction or alcoholism, some et cetera.

Like, was there something that you had to overcome and that one of those variables is, is great. And if a person has both in their unicorn, because they understand what it’s like to be competitive, They understand what it’s like to be accountable and they understand what it takes to make it happen. Um, you know, to, to take that challenge upon themselves, um, and just, you know, make the math work so to speak. Um, so I thought that was really interesting.

Andy Paul: Well, I guarantee you that some place that some time in some interview, there’s going to be some persont that says yeah, the challenge I overcame was having too much.

Becc Holland: Yeah.

Andy Paul: Right. And yeah. Uh, I was malformed as a result of that and had to overcome having everything handed to me and, and learning that I had to go out and earn it myself.

Becc Holland: Right. Yeah. It’s almost like, it’s like, okay, I don’t, I don’t want your money, you know, not because I’m mad, but because I need to, I’ll never forget when I was, um, I think I was 12 and I went on a run with my, my dad and a couple of his work friends. And we were right near the end of the run. It was like a five mile run.

And, uh, I actually told him this story a couple of weeks ago and he, he vaguely remembered it, but right near the end of the run, I said, dad, I want to quit. Like you guys are going too fast. Like it’s been five miles. I’m like, you know, my legs are half the size of here is you’re six, five. And I remember him saying, you have to finish. And I said, why? I was all mad. I said, why? He said it builds character. And I’m like,

Andy Paul: That was a standard answer when I was growing up as well.

Becc Holland: Right. I’m like, Oh, okay. You know, and I’ll never forget that moment. And I’m like, he’s right. You know, I did struggle for the last, whatever, you know, half of a mile, you know, but I made it. And, um, he empowered me to teach myself that with enough.

And if something, um, you know, that I can make it happen. So I think that that can be a gift to people, especially early on, but you know, all throughout their life.

Andy Paul: Yeah, no, I think the lessons from parents are really strong and, and, you know, I jokingly say sometimes about some of the bad sales behaviors that we see is someone will ask me, well, you know, what, what do you think is the cause of this? I say bad parenting.

Becc Holland: Yeah.

Andy Paul: So, uh, and I’m only half joking.

Becc Holland: Yeah, joking until you realize this, but it’s real.

Andy Paul: Right. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve run sales development at some high profile startups. And so in your opinion, What is the state of sales development?

Becc Holland: Uh it’s. It’s brutal. Yeah. It’s uh, yeah, brutal would be the one word. Um,

Andy Paul: Is it heading in the right direction in your opinion?

Becc Holland: I am doing everything I can do bend it there.

Andy Paul: So the answer is no,

Becc Holland: So the answer’s no, yes. I mean, I think that we it’s headed for, for the right direction in terms of I’ve seen people’s, um, I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this, but when you’ve been doing a workout for the last 10 years, and then all of a sudden you find out that that workout for whatever reason isn’t effective

Andy Paul: Right.

Becc Holland: And it makes sense. But you’re almost

Andy Paul: You learn something new along the way science has evolved or whatever, right.

Becc Holland: Right. And you’re almost mad about the last 10 years, that you struggled and did all these things, and now you understand why you didn’t get your goal. And so, you know, I don’t know what the percentages are, but in some cases I’ve been the person who continued with the bad workout to justify the last 10 years.

Right. So it’s just an ego thing. And, um, that is the most dangerous and crippling thing I think is his ego of, well, we’re going to do this cause it’s always been done. We’re going to do this. Cause this is best in practice, you know, whatever. And I’m like, well, you know, I’ve seen studies of, you know, 76% of SDRs, aren’t hitting quota. And it’s like, well, okay. So best in practice.

Andy Paul: Well, except except you’re going to hear back oftentimes certain managers. Well, yes, but 24% are.

Becc Holland: Right. And it’s like, well, okay. We’re, we’re not there, so,

Andy Paul: Learning the wrong lesson from the, from the situation. Yes.

Becc Holland: Right. So I, I do think, um, that we, we are getting there in terms of, I think we’re getting, uh, more and more tired of where it’s at, which provides the breeding ground, uh, arguably for a opportunity, for a change. Um, so I do think that we’re getting there in terms, if I do think the right components are being worked in to where, um, you know, people now, whether there’ll be open to a different solution, even though it’s not best quote, unquote, best in practice. Um, but that gets them, their goal is a whole nother can of worms, but I do think we’re getting there in terms of the, um, you know, we’re tired of it. It was sick and not seeing, uh, hitting our result. And we’re, I think we’re all assuming, um, at least from what I’ve seen, I picked my head up originally, whenever I started deploying a number of, of different quote unquote different theories.

I picked my head up from what we were doing on my first met MarTech company. And I’m like, surely someone has figured this out. Like, surely I I’m just crazy and in the wrong. So I just started, Andy. I just started banging down doors, enterprise, mid market SMB. And I’m like, what are you doing? Is it working?

You know, What’s your data look like, et cetera. And they’re like, who is this girl? Like, why is she asking me all these very intimate questions? And I was just convinced I’m like, someone surely has the answer and I’m the insane one. And come to find out, I’m like, Oh, you know, programs were, in a great case scenario where my program was at. Um, and the majority of them were, were falling behind even the metric that I had run against before I was deploying, uh, most of this new theories. So, um, TLDR long-winded question, I do think that we’re, we’re getting to the point where we’ve had enough and I just, I hope and, and lie in bed at night, thinking about that we are innovative enough and open minded enough to let that tenure workout go and take the next step.

Andy Paul: Okay. So summarize for us. What is the tenure workout? Ten-year-old workout that’s currently happening in sales development. What are the, what are the things that we’ve grown tired of?

Becc Holland: Yeah. So I don’t know if we we’ve grown tired of the outcome. I don’t know if we’ve grown tired of any of the inputs, but we have certainly grown tired with the outcome. Um, so I think the inputs that lead up to it, I’d say number one, if I had to boil it down to three or four, I’d say number one is the relationship between marketing and SDR.

Um, I think is, is a big gap for us. The relationship between SDR and sales, um, KPI systems and how our metricking people, and the last one, and the only quote unquote tactical one that I would suggest would be, um, that we are not personalizing. We don’t know who our buyer is. Um, even though our buyer wants us to know who they are.

Andy Paul: Right. So, all right. Let’s, let’s dig into a couple of those is, um, in your opinion, where, where do SDRs belong?

Becc Holland: Um, you mean in terms of who they roll up to. Yeah. So I think there appear with marketing and sales. So I, I do believe, and I’ve had the luxury of working for, um, uh, revenue leaders in the past. And that made the most sense of, there are some decisions that aren’t good for sales teams, uh, but they’re good for the SDR team. There’s some decisions that are not great for the SDR team, but are good for the sales team. And I think you need a. Someone who’s looking at the entire funnel, um, who is quote unquote an arbitrator of that conversation. So I do believe that a marketing head, and an SDR head, a sales head are all three peers in a very appropriate funnel.

Andy Paul: So a third organization?

Becc Holland: Yes, exactly. Well, if we’re going to create a third role, I’m not by the way, a necessarily arguing, certainly in some case scenarios that you should have SDR. You know, sometimes full cycle is, is the answer. But if you’re going to have one, I do think that it is, it can be toxic for them to roll up to either their negative ramifications to rolling up to sales or marketing for SDRs.

Andy Paul: Interesting. So I think that’s the first time I’ve heard this advocate is that that SDRs need to be their own own organization.

Becc Holland: Yes. Yes.

Andy Paul: And so interesting. why, why.

Becc Holland: Well, I mean, uh, if I had to break it down, I’ve, I’ve answered to both. I’ve answered to marketing and sales and I’ve answered to revenue. Um, also. Uh, what I was answering to marketing programs and I’m not, uh, certainly not talking about any one in specific, uh, but in case you’re listening all of my former employers. Sweat. Gulp.

Uh, no, but I I’ve rolled up to marketing or teams that I’ve seen that roll up to marketing. What ends up happening is, you know, marketing, uh, has an increasingly, um, been metric or increased heat on producing ROI. So they go to an event, you know, and they invest whatever $50,000 in the event. And so from the C-level, whether that CMO or not, uh, you will get, um, they want to prove the ROI from that event. So they’ll have you call on, let’s say you have 10,000 leads from the event. They’ll have you call on all of them. Very, very aggressively. When you say these leads, aren’t great. They’ll say we’ll call them more. Uh,

Andy Paul: the answer.

Becc Holland: Right of like, because they want to prove the ROI of the event, which makes sense. And so you’ll see a lot, marketers do a lot of things, but one of the things they do primarily is, um, you know, Oh, well, nothing has to necessarily be tied to ROI.

And so, you know, the KPIs, it’s not the marketer that’s broken, it’s a system that’s programmed, uh, broken. And so SDR can, um, Have some negative ramifications if all the sudden I’m calling on, um, you know, a little that doesn’t hit ICC, ideal customer company or ICT, ideal customer title. You know, it’s an intern over at, you know, an SMB company. That’s part of the product discipline when we sell into sales. Um, but you know, marketing doesn’t have a solution for that. So they just say call them more when, whenever it would be, even if they did book that intern, Sales wouldn’t take it. Um, so that’s an example,

Andy Paul: Well, you hope they wouldn’t take it.

Becc Holland: Right? And then all of a sudden SDR spent their time, uh, on something that didn’t yield, the result that they wanted. So even if they did book it, it wasn’t qualified. And so, um, we’re up a creek, in the marketing case. Yeah.

Andy Paul: Yeah- Oh, go ahead. I’m sorry.

Becc Holland: No, so that that’s an example of what can happen, marketing side. Um, you know, so a lot that I’ve done to clean up the marketing processes, um, redefining, uh, MQL to mean. Uh, someone who hits ice, I did away with that ICP cause ICP typically is bereft of title. So I broke it down to ICC and ICT customer company, and customer title. And, um, basically out of, you know, let’s say 10,000 people that, you know, attended a webinar. I would exclude all of the people who did not hit ICC, who did not hit ICT, who we are currently selling into, who we’ve already sold into. And the results are staggering.

You go from 10,000, all of a sudden to 200 leads. And it’s like, this is what your sales team was talking about. That these leads are quote unquote BS. So they don’t call on any of them. Cause they’re like, these are BS. So I’ve re metricked marketing teams to say, like, I’m not going to ask you to book the meeting and I’m not going to ask certainly to close the deal. Uh, let’s not be a martyr here. Your new KPI is, is on brand and we generate or, um, yeah, brand and lead generation 25% on brand, meaning, you know, 10,000 is your number. So 10,000 people now know, you know, who, who Oracle is, if I’m at Oracle, you know, but the lion’s share is 75% of your kids. KPI is out of those 10,000. Who is someone that we want to sell into who we haven’t already are? The two questions I’m I’m asking. And, uh, so that number is 200. So now all of a sudden you see a marketing team, uh, being aggressive about it, increasing the 200 number as opposed to 10,000, and they’re not so comfortable.

So, you know, long story short, whenever you have SDR answering into marketing, they, um, they inherit a lot out of the, uh, agendas. And, um, you know, quote unquote false activity that aren’t going to give them the results that they want, or the sales team, the results they want, or the org, the revenue results that they want. Um, because of the answering structure. Yeah.

Andy Paul: But that, that same thing could exist though. You know, if they’re reporting for sales, I mean, you still could get.

Becc Holland: Exact same thing.

Andy Paul: An influx of, of leads that really don’t deserve consideration at that point in

Becc Holland: Right. So the exact same thing, it’s just a mirror. You just have to think about how people are metricked and what their agenda is based on that metric. But you know, when you answer into sales again, uh, I’ve seen, you know, if I’m an AE uh, and I am not hitting quota, then I want to point somewhere. It’s either you or me. Right. So.

Andy Paul: It’s definitely not me.

Becc Holland: Right. And it’s not me. So I want to at least delay my churn. So I’m going to point somewhere and the only logical spot to point is SDR. So if you are, you know, metricking on any kind of, if, if AEs are qualifying appointments, you know, saying that they’re qualified, especially if it’s on subjective criteria and keep in mind, they’re measured on uh, conversion sales cycle, uh, in quota. So if I’m not hitting quota, I’m going to point to them SDR team, uh, number one, number two, if I’m measured on conversion, I’m going to want to be the King or Queen of conversion. So I’m only going to convert right before the deal closes to look like a princess. Um, and then, you know, the third is sales cycle. So inherently AE teams. And again, shout out to AEs. I love him. I’m like, this is a broken system. It’s not about the account executive and the SDR not getting along. Don’t, you know, save your beer money. This is not a personality thing. Um, but AEs, you know, have incentive to decline and disqualify SDR appointments, unless you put some kind of objective criteria in place of. Did they hit these four things and let’s not talk about need as one of them? Or, you know, ask them budget questions, or are they the decision maker on the first date to scare our prospects away because of process, but you have negative ramifications on the sales side too. Have they, they are, even if I’m hitting quotas and account executive, I will always want more and better pipeline, or I’m not an AE.

Andy Paul: Well, it seems like the counterpoint though, when you’re talking about the A’s are yeah, of course I’ll disqualify and so on. Is that by the same token, many of them are also being metricked on their pipeline coverage ratios. So it’s almost like there’s an incentive to be less discerning about what becomes an accepted lead and an, a qualified opportunity.

Becc Holland: Yeah. So I I’ve seen it, seen it swing both ways. Um, but it’s, it’s, uh, relationship with SDR is, I mean, there’s a lot of case scenarios where it’s like, okay, You know, in the beginning, if I have no pipeline, I’m going to take anything, right. I’m just going to take an appoint with anything. If you start stacking up my calendar, all of a sudden the bar just starts raising. I’m only going to take these really, really high, great opportunities as the bar raises. And I’m never going to tell you to shut off pipelines. So I do think that there needs to be some counter checks and balances on both sides of the funnel to make it a funnel. Cause I’ve never walked into an organization and been like, Oh, This is a real funnel.

This is an actual actual funnel. Um, you know, so it’s, you know, I I’ve even talked to programs where the conversion ratios of like same types of leads being sent over from SDR the qualification ratios or, uh, conversion rates varied from 10% with one rep to 90% for the next round, over a two year period, meaning. It’s a significant data set. We’re not talking about a week.

Andy Paul: Well, I’m surprised you talked about it to your period I’m surprised the one that accepted 90% of them was still there after

Becc Holland: I know who’s 90 and who’s 10. And how can we like, can we get a mix? Um,

Andy Paul: Well, along those lines, let me ask this question. So again, in your mind, what what’s sort of the one KPI that everyone uses that you think is totally useless.

Becc Holland: Oh, there’s so many, there’s so many,

Andy Paul: Give us your favorite and why?

Becc Holland: Can I give you my top two favorite? Cause I don’t, I don’t, it’s kind of like ice cream flavors. I can’t limited down to one

Andy Paul: Chocolate and vanilla.

Becc Holland: Okay. Yeah.

On the marketing side of the house. I would say I’m probably going to be giving you three, MQL as defined as someone who downloads content or attends a webinar. And that being my quote unquote KPI.

Andy Paul: And so why is that useless?

Becc Holland: Uh, because the majority of MQL, uh don’t we, they, aren’t an indicator of, is this person qualified? And do we want to sell into this person? And so the associated, uh, principal typically is like, okay, most aggressive case scenario I’m metricked on closed won revenue off of these leads. That’s very rare though. Most people would just, they would say marketing’s quote unquote pipeline is if an intern from Oracle downloads a piece of content, well, Oracle Oracle’s worth a billion dollars as the sale. Hypothetically, if it closed all of a sudden, I just provided you a billion dollars in pipeline. And everyone in marketing is going out at 2:00 PM on a Thursday to get pina coladas. Cause they just, they just hit their goal.

Andy Paul: I’m laughing. Cause I just pictured all these marketing types, turning this program off, but yeah, go ahead.

Becc Holland: No, absolutely. And again, it’s like, I always see the same thing. Marketing’s like cheering. They’re like, we always hit our KPI, you know, and then sales developments sharing a little bit less, but they’re still cheering. And a marketing or a sales is just bawling their eyes out. And the VP of sales is churn because I don’t know, he or she couldn’t learn how to sell. Is, uh, is the backing. So, um, so that would be my number one would

Andy Paul: Number one, number two.

Becc Holland: Uh, to the next KPI. Uh, that’s my most favorite in terms of how dysfunctional it is, is, uh, when teams round robin inbound demo requests, the logic being that these are highest buyer intent leads. Um, and 90% of our, whatever close won deals is off of inbound. So they round Robin the inbound, um, across the reps based on geo and give them a meeting quota. That’s my that’s my second favorite.

Andy Paul: Interesting. Okay. So let’s walk through that. So what, uh, what strikes you as odd?

Becc Holland: I’d say the, the top three things that strike me as off of it is number one, especially if you do it based on geo, uh, you know, and I’ll give you an example. Um, I worked for a company that was based in Berlin. Uh, they did, uh, aggressive marketing efforts in Berlin. I ran a team in multiple geos. So we were on a round robin quota, four meeting total. So the Berlin reps are killing it because they’re getting tons of demo requests.

Andy Paul: local requests.

Becc Holland: Right. And especially with the argument of, well, they speak German, you know? And so these prospects do too. And so the German reps were absolutely killing their numbers. And then a US reps and APAC reps are like trying to make up the Delta on, on outbound. Outbound is 15,000 times harder. And so it’s like, okay, the German rep, you know, over a quarter, like the top quote unquote performer for Germany had set one outbound meeting in like three  months. And the US team, you know, and the APAC team had gotten anywhere from seven to 10, but because of the inbound line that produced 30, you know, for this inbound rep, you know, all of a sudden the German rep looks amazing and I’ll never forget. We’re at the meeting where they say like, Hey, this giant deal close. And it’s from this German rap. And Hey, can you tell us what you did? Like, can you tell us the wizardry? Was that the what’s the term? Yeah, it was the term that they use. They said, can you tell us the magic that you did to get this deal? And he’s like, I emailed him and set up a time and like the meeting was over and he was, he was honest about it, but I’m like, it, it gives you no indication if you, if you round Robin, especially according to geo, um, Yeah, it gives you no indication on everything that a KPI system should indicate. Who’s your best rep. Who’s working the hardest and who’s the most skilled. It wipes out all three of those. Um, and you have to double pay for a marketing lead.

Andy Paul: Yeah, no, I agree. A hundred percent on that. All right. So your third one

Becc Holland: Third one. Um, I would say, I, I’m debating on whether to SDR specific or sales specific. Um,

Andy Paul: Go sales.

Becc Holland: Yeah, I would say the third one would be whenever sales reps are measured on net new ARR up to six months. And that the CSM gets the expansion business post six months.

Andy Paul: Yeah, that’s, that’s one that I’ve heard a lot. So what would would would you do differently?

Becc Holland: I have, I have watched it, Andy. I have watched a CSM walk up to me. Uh, he was French and he was like, so this opportunity is going to… sorry, I do a terrible French accent. Sorry, I didn’t want, right. Yeah. And he’s like, this is, there’s this massive expansion opportunity that’s going to close, but it’s five months in 28 days. So I’m going to push it. I told the prospect to push.

Andy Paul: Yeah.

Becc Holland: they’re measured on expansion post six months. And so they literally told a prospect that they would not sell to them the expansion deal until three days from them so that they could get credit.

So what I do differently, it’s like, well, it depends on your setup. There’s AMRs it depends on if you have an AMR M cross sell up, sell, resell a team. If I had CSM and AE only a depend on, uh, multiple different variables, but I basically would do something of like, okay, You know, the AAE is based off of, uh, they can retire one or two ways, you know, the land or the expand and CSM, uh, can do the same thing, but for expansion or renewal. So all of a sudden you see the AA and CSM working together, you know, you aren’t double paying, but you are measuring them against quotas of like, Hey, you can either go hunt a new fish. Like if you just close LinkedIn and you have an inkling to go close, you know, a $20,000 deal at Microsoft that takes you eight months to close, it’s like, go do it. Or you can do the easier thing. And make sure that that customer is being taken care of, make sure that you sell the deal appropriately and that you set them up for success and don’t make promises you can’t keep. So that you don’t turn that deal. And then also that you deliver on the goal that they bought your software for. So I’ve seen a myriad of different software companies and they’re like, Oh, well it’s not my responsibility um, first to help someone achieve the outcome that they sought to achieve with buying my software. I’m like, well, you’re looking at it wrong. It’s your opportunity.

Andy Paul: Yeah, you’re  saying thatthe AE is saying that.

Becc Holland: Right. So with companies in general, they’re like, well, you know, you buy whatever piece of software, you know, and it’s not necessarily my goal to help bridge, bridge you to the outcome. And I’m like, well, people are trying to impact by more than ever. So it’s like focus on the impact and know what their goal was and buying whatever software they’re going to like, you know, I’ll use my last company, Chorus, know why they’re buying Chorus. Usually it’s quota attainment. So help them drive quota attainment. Right. Um, so I, I would say that’s the, the biggest metric when it comes to sales. Um, I would probably, again, depends on the program segment, et cetera, but I would metric an AE of like, you can do land or, or expansion to retire quota. Um, and CSM, same thing, but with expansion or renewal.

So you find the CSM not ignoring other deals to go for the expansion, but weighing the differences as if they’re a CRO, uh, you know, because all of a sudden their KPI, their KPI is a CRO essentially.

Andy Paul: Yeah, it’s interesting because I’ve worked in environments where we’ve had the same setup and, um, yeah. Yeah. It seems like you’re working with two different definitions of expansion and because yeah, what I’d want the AEs to do is define like all net new opportunities in that account. Right.

Different divisions, uh, so on. So it was an essence, a new sale, It’s just because you’re using one division doesn’t mean they were bound to use it. Your product and other divisions. So if you could learn or not learn, if you could discover those opportunities, then yeah. I’d want the aid he to stay involved.

Cause that’s what they’re good at developing new opportunities.

Becc Holland: right. Um, and you’ll see them earnesting up a little bit in the sales cycle of like, I’m not. Not so keen to sell a deal, that’s going to churn, uh, because you know, all of a sudden I’m based on the value of this contract longterm. Um, and so I’m starting to hunt deals where it makes the most sense from a rev perspective, um, with churn in mind, um, So I’ve seen, you know, essentially 40 different types of expansion sale of I’m upselling to the core user.

Like, you know, chorus, we had AEs, we sell to more AEs or you’re selling additional features, is the second kind of like I’m going to send, you know, sell them some kind of suite, you know, or I’m going to sell the third kind as a different discipline within the same company. So BDR two and CSM two at chorus.

Or the last one is what you mentioned of like I sold into LinkedIn marketing solutions and now all of a sudden I got to sell them the LinkedIn talent solutions, which if it’s just the CSM on the deal, it’s like a different sale. It’s a whole different sale. Um,

You don’t

Andy Paul: leverage the relationship at all. Yeah.

Becc Holland: Right. So yeah, not metricked correctly, the AE or the CSM in an inappropriate manner.

All of a sudden, you know, marketing solutions, even though, um, it is an opportunity and it’s easier because I have internal referral. If we have, you know, they’re, they’re happy. Um, it’s going unsold, uh, just because of the, the way that we’re comping and structuring the KPI.

Andy Paul: Interesting. Okay. Well, last question for you. Unfortunately, I would love to go deeper on that, but we’re running a little bit out of time is so tell us about your new venture.

Becc Holland: Oh, yes. So, um, if you haven’t already had enough of me-

Andy Paul: If you want more Becc Holland.

Becc Holland: Everyone’s like, I don’t, I don’t Andy. Um, so I, um, TLDR, I started a series, um, when I was at one of my former companies, G2, that just started as a, uh, with me, a couple of pizza boxes with some buddies and a dream. Um, and really it was. Can we help? Can we help more reps hit quota? And so we started this kind of rogue, organic, uh, you know, training series where I just trained reps after hours, I did five sessions and all of a sudden we had, you know, 600 registered in an hour and packed out the building.

So that’s where it started. And we coined it. I’ll never forget, uh, one day an SDR said, you have to name it. And I said like, what? And he said, Flip the Script. I said what script? And he goes, well, I think you’re flipping over a lot of things. So, um, it stuck and I took that with me to Chorus. Um, but my new venture is basically, um, uh, so I LLC-ed Flip the Script is now a real company, no matter what my dad says, um, I I’ve nicknamed my dad, my CTO.

Andy Paul: there you go.

Becc Holland: So I’m starting a, um, basically, um, free website, where you can come and you can get free training on all kinds of different topics, whether that’s cold calling cold emailing, objection, handling, you know, how to personalize at scale, expansion, selling, et cetera. But it’s, uh, uh, the vision is, you know, how can we, how can we help? Um, you know, I just have this rep in my head for some reason, that’s in like, New Jersey, like Hoboken, who is at the office at 7:00 PM., isn’t hitting quota and doesn’t know why and once help and one has drive and doesn’t have the keys to get there. So this is essentially, you know, a website for anyone and everyone who wants to learn, including myself.

Um, you know, of. How can we, how can we help people hit more quota than ever before, and hopefully make a delta and make a, um, an impact on the industry to turn sales into something different and turn it back into a game where, uh, that people can win.

Andy Paul: And it’s free.

It is.

So how do you make money?

Becc Holland: I don’t yet,

Andy Paul: All right,

Becc Holland: As my CTO-

Andy Paul: This is an extension of your good works.

Becc Holland: As my CTO. No. So essentially, um, I mean, long story short, I have had some incredible sponsors, um, that have, that wanted to be part of it. And so we really wanted to, I had the heart inserted, they to shift the quote unquote burden of the payment, uh, back onto, um, back on to companies.

And so, um, I have several sponsors so far. I can’t name them yet. Um, but several very, very incredible orgs, incredible leadership team. Um, you know, that rolled the dice and bit the bullet and, and invested. I said, I’m almost viewing it, I told them as a seed round, but essentially, um, it’s not yeah. Free to anyone.

It’s just free to, uh, everyone who’s consuming it. So, um, so I wanted to turn it into true KPI system girl. I wanted to turn it into how can we build a community? Where it’s, it’s free for the person on the other end. Um, cause the people who want training the most typically are the people who don’t have and don’t hold the budget for it. Um, so I wanted to democratize the whole thing and say like, okay. And that, that community is very, very valuable to a certain, you know, group of sponsors. So how can we help both parties through something like this? So it’s going to be free, free to, uh, anyone all they’ll need is a company. No.

Andy Paul: Wow. Okay. So I like the way Facebook started you need an edu email.

Becc Holland: Right. Exactly. You will need a company email is the, the, um, the one requirement.

Andy Paul: Okay. And this launches when.

Becc Holland: It is October 13th. Um, I’m going to be doing several different sections. Um, three I can announce or three I can announce or, uh, two markably, but I’m gonna do one section, which is core videos. It’s evergreen topics, cold calling, cold emailing, objection, handling, et cetera. And then I’m going to do, um, the second one that I can talk about is seasons.

So I’m going to pick a topic and do 20 videos on that topic. So the first season I basically re-shot all the videos that I did while I, I, um, was at chorus, um, you know, beefed them up and, and enriched them. Um, and, uh, that season is pilot. And then season two, I’m going to start releasing on October 13th when the website goes live.

Andy Paul: Got it. And the red streak in the hair is for what season.

Becc Holland: I hope people are listening to this. After launch season to season to season two is going to every single one of them is going to be color themed. And so season two, that that is going to be the change for season two.

Andy Paul: Perfect. So if people want to find out more about this where can they go.

Becc Holland: Yes, they can go to flipthescript.co and you can preregister and, um, to see like a behind the scenes updates and what we’re up to. Um, and, uh, yeah, post-launch same, same site flipthescript.co and everything will be live.

Andy Paul: Perfect. All right, Becc. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Uh, we didn’t get through to halfway. We’re gonna talk about what have you back. We’ll do it again.

Becc Holland: Thank you so much for having me, Andy. I had a lot of fun.