My guest on this episode is Glenn Mattson, President of Mattson Enterprise, Inc., a Sandler Training Consulting and Training firm. Among the topics Glenn and I dig into in this episode are why most sales training is not effective in producing improved performance, how to understand emotional drivers of behavior change, and why sales training that doesn’t focus on personal change is pointless.
What’s your most powerful sales attribute?
My ears and my ability to ask the right questions.
Who is your sales role model?
What’s one book that every salesperson should read?
Scripts People Live: Transactional Analysis of Life Scripts, by Claude Steiner.
What music is on your playlist right now?
Lynyrd Skynyrd, AC/DC, and Led Zeppelin.
Andy Paul: It’s time to accelerate! Hi, I’m your host, Andy Paul. Join me as I host conversations with the leading experts in sales, marketing, sales automation, sales process, leadership management, training, coaching – any resource that I believe can help you accelerate the growth of your sales, your business, and most importantly, you.
Hello, and welcome to Accelerate! I am looking forward to talking with my guest today. Joining me is Glenn Mattson: Mattson. Glenn Mattson: is president of Mattson Enterprise, a Sandler Training consulting and training firm specializing in sales and management productivity and effectiveness. Glenn Mattson: , welcome to Accelerate!
Glenn Mattson: Thanks, Andy, really appreciate it. Look forward to hopefully giving some great insight to your audience.
Andy Paul: I’m sure you will. So, please, just take a minute and introduce yourself. How did you get your start in sales, for instance?
Glenn Mattson: Oddly enough, I’m one of those stories – I started selling when I was actually young. I’ve been self-employed my entire life. Starting off when I grew up in the northeast with going out shoveling driveways, that turned into a different type of business, but that business is where I would speak with adults and do more labor-type work. That led into a very successful business, which led into me being a client of Sandler, and back there in my early 20s, I had a real good business then. It was doing very, very well, and I was part of their black belt training group. I figured I didn’t want that to be what I was doing for the rest of my life. Although the money was fantastic, I decided to sell my business and go into the most successful franchise that Sandler has, because we’re a franchise network. And I find myself thinking. I never really knew what I was doing until I figured out how to sell it and train it. And that led to me actually using Sandler’s methodologies to help me become – knock on wood, over time – one of the top guys in the world for Sandler.
Andy Paul: So lots of different methodologies out there, sales methodology, and so on. What set Sandler apart, what’s Sandler’s method? What’s their philosophy?
Glenn Mattson: Well, I think two things or three things, big picture. Sandler, by footprint, has the most number of offices around the country and around the world. So by footprint, we’re the largest training company in the world. And we’re also the most recognized in terms of awards. The awards we win are in three different areas. It’s sales, management, leadership; and the thing, I think, that helps us win those awards, especially in the sales side, Andy, is that people unfortunately aren’t selling the way people actually buy. People are taught to sell the way they justify their decisions. So one of the unique things that helps us really create a massive ROI in our client base, is that we help people understand the psychology behind selling, and the fact that people need to have an emotional driver behind the purchase. They need to have the capacity to understand – this is the salespeople – through mutual discovery, what is that prospect’s, what we’ll call ‘emotional drivers’? And the emotional drivers that cause people to take action are either negative or positive. So we call it pain or gain. We’re really the innovators, the first ones that came out and said, “Hey, it’s not features and benefits. It’s not you showing up and telling them how great you are or what you can do, or how fast you can deliver something, or the how price sensitive your product is.” Because it’s a hope. When you start talking about features and benefits, features and benefits sell to the mind, which is the justification piece. And people miss the core reasons why people buy. So if you throw a bunch of benefits at someone, what you’re doing is you’re hoping, or worst case, you’re assuming that the issues those benefits solve are the problems your clients or your prospects have.
Andy Paul: Yeah, I mean people make, as I like to say – and I certainly did not originate this, but – people make emotional decisions for logical reasons.
Glenn Mattson: Yes, right. So one of our mainstays is that people buy emotionally and they justify it intellectually. It’s one of our selling rules. That’s a huge differential. So when we go in, we teach people.
Andy Paul: I’m sorry, I’m just jumping in on that. So that’s different than how Miller Heiman or anybody else focuses their methodology?
Glenn Mattson: Yeah, their methodology, it’s all great stuff. I mean, honestly, if you use any system, it works. We just want it to work better, faster, and easier. So when we spend our time, we spend an enormous amount of time on the qualification phase, features and benefits, throwing out RFPs, doing quotes. Doing proposals without clearly identifying what’s really going on, in our mind, is ridiculous. I mean, why would you do a proposal and find out that it has to go up the corporate ladder? Well you should have known that beforehand. Why would you do a quote unless they’re ready to buy? They’re just trying to figure out if they want to leave the vendor that they’re with. That’s not done based on a quote, that’s done on professional selling. So most times, when we go into organizations, we find that they’re wasting an awful lot of time and spending an enormous amount of resources chasing stuff that they never should have even had an open conversation with regards to. Or if they did the right qualifications, they could have closed it months before, and at the right price points.
Andy Paul: So what are the keys in the Sandler methodology for qualification? Because I absolutely agree that the number one problem with so many companies is they spend an inordinate amount of time selling to prospects who are never going to buy. So in your methodology and Sandler methodology, what do they do in terms of qualification to help disqualify the people that shouldn’t be speaking?
Glenn Mattson: Sure, sure. So, in our world, to over simplify, we have three stages and within those stages, there’s steps, and one is obviously building relationship, which we all know. And then there’s qualification, which we’re going to talk about, and then the closing piece. Inside the qualifying, in our mind, it’s pain or gain. So, what are the emotional drivers of the company? What are the emotional drivers of the individual you’re talking about? And then from there, once we have an understanding of what their emotional drivers are, (and of course, I’m oversimplifying it because it’s a lengthy conversation) we then have to have conversations about budget. It’s the willingness to invest, to fix the pain. Do they have the ability to do so? And if so, what kind of impact will it have on their business or their market share or their budgets? You know, internal budgets? And then the third piece we look at is really decision making, and how they make decisions inside that company to see if it makes sense to hire us or change vendors. And decision making, really, is about who’s involved in it. What does it look like? When do you want to pull the trigger? How are you going to make those type of decisions? It’s a cast of characters. So when you look at larger account development, that’s a lot of time and energy spent there. And where it becomes very convoluted, Andy, is if you don’t have the right training, the pain changes based on decision makers. So for instance, I was on a phone call before you and I started to talk. I was talking with a middle manager, and what he was telling me his emotional drivers were, and what the business drivers were… When I finally got the CEO on the telephone about an hour later, he and I were talking and they were dramatically different. Now, yes, you could turn around and say that they were losing market share and what they were doing wasn’t working anymore. That was consistent. But the reason why, and the impact of those things, were entirely different based on the level of the individual. So if I didn’t get the manager’s pain on the table, he never would have introduced me to the CEO. When I talked to the CEO, what he gave me as his issues was obviously dramatically different than the manager’s just because of perception.
Andy Paul: Yeah, actually, level has a lot to do with your perception.
Glenn Mattson: Absolutely, right? So then we have two other subsets once we get past decision making, which is proof of concept. And proof of concept really is: Before we go and jump into the pool, why don’t we put a toe in first? Let’s take a look at the philosophies of the office, the tolerance of what they’re expecting or looking for in a solution. So if you’re looking for something I can’t deliver, why would we continue through the process? So proof of concept is really important. And then lastly is getting on the same page about decision making with what we call the ultimate contract question. Which is, hey, if we bring it to you and you don’t like it, that’s fine. We’ll shake hands and part friends; no harm, no foul. We’re okay with a no. But if you love it, what are we going to do? And we want to make sure that all the parties are on the same page, so that we’re mutually beneficial in terms of the relationship, and it’s all mutually agreed upon. So if you and I are talking and we don’t have any pain, or you don’t want to share it with me, you’re not really qualified. If you do have pain, but you have no ability to fund the solution, not necessarily qualified. If you have pain and you can fund it, now we have to talk about all the decision makers, what the process is, who’s involved in it, all the nuances. Obviously, you know, when you’re talking about larger account selling, you have a lot of players that are involved in it; it’s pretty complex. Versus if you’re just doing mom and pop or small businesses, where you’re really talking to one or two people, it’s much easier.
Andy Paul: Sure. So interesting. You talk about the pain and gain, and there’s a whole school of thought that says pain is really not an incentive to make investments as much as gain is. So I mean, everything you’re talking about is sort of focused on the pain, maybe that’s just the examples you’re giving. But it seems to me that when I work with clients, and I’m not doing training like you are, but when I do advising and we do deal deconstruction and so on, understanding the gain always seems to be a more powerful motivator for ultimately making the change.
Glenn Mattson: Well, it’s interesting. The two motivators, pain and gain, are also within time periods, meaning that you have past and future. So you have past pain, future pain, past gains, and future gains. Now when you say past gains, that’s instant gratification. Which is “I want it fixed today because I want this as my outcome.” For example, most of your boat sales, motor boats and those type of things, are all done the first three or four weekends that it’s nice out, right? So you’re out and you say “this is fantastic, I want to go get myself a boat.” But when you talk to certain levels, like if you’re spending time with CEOs and owners of larger companies, gain is their mindset. The gain is, if we fix this are we going to accomplish these three things, which are going to elevate the company to the next level? But if you also look at where people are today, “we need to fix these three things so we can do the next piece,” then that’s either pain today or pain tomorrow. So, between the two of them, the strongest motivator we have is pain, and in the hierarchy, in the order, getting rid of pain today is by far the strongest motivator we have. Getting rid of pain for tomorrow is the second strongest. The third is instant gratification, and the hardest to sell – not necessarily a motivator – but the hardest to sell is future pleasure. So your skill set has to be dramatically different to sell future gain compared to fixing today’s pain. But people will make faster decisions, better decisions, and spend more money if they have to fix problems for today versus gains for tomorrow. But it does differentiate a little bit depending on who you’re talking to and their personality styles.
Andy Paul: Yeah, and it speaks a lot to the product type and so on. I mean, you may say we saw this pretty complete system, and if we’re going to focus on immediate pain resolution then yeah, we may just do as you said before, let’s do a proof of concept. We’re gonna get our foot in the door or do something small and relatively risk free. We’re gonna address this pain, but the big payoff is the gain. Because to me, in my experience – I’ve sold, spent many years selling multimillion dollar-type communication systems – gain was always the driver. The ROI, at the end of the day, it was always based on the gain, as opposed to pain resolution.
Glenn Mattson: Yeah. And it’s a fine line in that environment of, if we get the gain, here’s the ROI. If we get the gain, here’s a market share. If you look at it, the other flip side is, if we don’t do it, we’re going to lose market share, which is gain, which is the pain piece. And you know, the gain is always your return on investment and you growth and market share, etc. But if you don’t do it, what’s going to happen? And that’s where the pain piece comes in. So, many people, when they look at gain in their mind, they’re taking the right hand, which is gain, taking the left hand, which is the pain if you don’t do it, and they combine the two of them and it becomes a hell of a motivator.
Andy Paul: Yeah, it’s just the flip side of the coin. Alright, good. So okay, so we understand Sandler. That’s great. Let’s talk about sales training, sort of as an industry. Because it’s certainly an industry in transition in many respects. I mean, we still need sales training. That part’s not going away. But gosh, I’m sure you see this a lot in writing about sales training – ‘classroom training is ineffective’, ‘millennials don’t learn that way’, ‘content’s outdated’, ‘they don’t retain anything’, ‘CEOs don’t see the ROI,’ blah, blah, blah. And yeah, digital training is arriving at full speed. So what are two or three significant trends you see happening in the sales training industry and how that’s going to impact the business to business sales environment?
Glenn Mattson: Sure, sure. Well, on more of a global standpoint, I believe that sales training doesn’t work either, which is an odd thing to say for someone who’s in sales training. Most sales training, unfortunately, when you look at how we learn and how we have to develop skill sets, we need to become aware of why we’re doing it. We need to have the knowledge of how to do it. And then we have to apply those two things consistently over time to develop a skill set. And where most training falls off the radar screen is the application piece.
Andy Paul: Application to the real world.
Glenn Mattson: Yes, absolutely right. So when we look at training, we look at it three different viewpoints; it’s the tactics and strategies to be successful. And then are you doing enough of the behavior that you need to do to get in front of the type of people you need to get in front of? And then lastly is the attitude. So one of the reasons we get such a huge rate of return for our clients when they spend money, is we actually teach all three. And if I start to talk to you about how to do account penetration, or how to bring in new accounts, we can spend all day on the easy tactics and strategies of what to say on the telephone. But if you have a massive need for approval, fear of rejection, phone procrastination, any of those things pop up in your head, you’re never going to utilize the training. So more times than not the reason it doesn’t stick – they’re training, they have the awareness and the knowledge, but they’re never really fixing what holds them back from applying it in the real world situations. So, big picture, do I think most training doesn’t work? Yeah, I don’t think it works very well, because they’re not training the way people need to.
Andy Paul: So how are you addressing that?
Glenn Mattson: You know, again, that’s one of the unique differentials that make us as successful as we are. That when we do training, if we are going to do technique training, we have to bleed it into the behavior and the attitudes. Because if I show you how to do something, you and I may have the self-esteem, we may have the confidence, we may have very little need for approval. Which is fear of rejection, which is wimping out, right? You and I may be okay with our money concept, which is – if the deal is 300,000 we’re great at it, but all of a sudden it’s 3 million and we’re literally having a conniptic fit inside. We’re stressed out, we’re afraid to lose a deal we don’t even have yet. So all of a sudden we don’t use the tactics and strategies. So it’s not a bad training program, but unfortunately, they’re not trained the right way. And training doesn’t work unless you change people.
Andy Paul: Which requires reinforcement.
Glenn Mattson: Yes. So if you said to us, “what are the three drivers that makes Sandler successful?” It’d be the pain, right? We teach people to sell the way they buy. We also come in and fix the broken records or the attitudinal piece. And then lastly, we’re really one of the only, and surely the first one, to do reinforcement training. So we don’t come in for a day and just train you and leave. It’s not going to work. People have to go out, try it, come back, learn from it, get beaten up a little bit, go back out again, get reinforced, come back in again. So reinforcement training by far is significantly a better rate of return. But if you add all three of them together, it’s great. So, based on the first question you had, I would turn around and say that the training, first of all, needs to address not just competencies of how to, and what to do. You have to make sure and instill, will they do it? Not can they. And a lot of companies spend an awful lot of money on teaching their people how to do it, but they’ve never addressed will they do it?
Andy Paul: Yeah, you’re right. They focus too much on the ‘how’ they miss the ‘why.’ And to me, this is the critical part that’s overlooked so much. You want to get people to change behaviors, they need to understand why, why this is important to do. I would say 90% plus of the skills training I see in sales these days is all about technique in the absence of context.
Glenn Mattson: Yes. And in the absence of bracing your head, heart, and your gut, right? So, knowing how to do it doesn’t mean I’m going to do it. I have to make sure that key ingredients will teach me and help me overcome those bravery issues to utilize what’s being taught. And that’s, again, why I think most training doesn’t work; it’s because they don’t have the motivation. They don’t have the right bravery issues and commitment to excellence, which helps them drive the utilization, and most CEOs have those things. Most executives have that drive. So it puzzles them. “We’ll just teach them how to do it, and they’ll do it.” And it’s not how it works. Because if they had those drivers, they’d be sitting in your chair.
Andy Paul: Yeah, based on the reading I’ve done, like our military, which are great learning and teaching institutions – people tend to think of being sort of command and control – but they teach the why. Because then when people have to apply it, and sometimes employ some sort of individual initiative, they’re able to do that because they understand why they’re doing it and what the objectives are. So how do you incorporate that into your training?
Glenn Mattson: Well, when we take a look at it, it depends on the situation. For instance, I had a phone call yesterday with someone who’s a Rainmaker himself, and he’s created a very profitable practice and business. And from their standpoint – he and his partner – the partner did the inside, he did the outside. So they developed processes and systems and hired people, etc. And during the course of my conversation, we started talking about the training piece. And he goes, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told them how to do this. And I assume that since I told it to them, they know how to do it.” And we started to laugh a little bit, because just because you did it doesn’t mean they’re going to stick with it. So one of the hardest things is having your leadership team understand that the people below you don’t have the same internal ingredients that you do. So the training program has to have the capacity to address the roadblocks that people are going to have when they’re actually doing the training and utilizing it and applying it. Right? If not, heck, I could write a book, you could write books like you have, and great books. And people could read the book and next thing you know, they should be able to do whatever they need to do. So you know, zero time selling, they’d read it, and they’d be able to get it. But that’s not how it works. So you really have to make sure that when you put some training in there, the reinforcement’s in place, the management team knows how to reinforce it, the management team knows how to coach to it. And more importantly, the management team needs to understand how to coach through these attitudinal limitations that people have so you can change the people. If they don’t change, the stickiness is very low.
Andy Paul: So one thing companies are trying to do to address that, we see these new mobile apps coming out, like MindTickle and others that address our, what I call contextual training, right? Supposedly a rep, right in advance of doing a sales call or something, can bring up the app and get some tips in terms of what they should be doing in situations they’re about to confront, with a sales rep. How are you seeing that working? Because it’s interesting. I know managers like it because it gives them dashboards, gives them data. Like I referenced MindTickle. That’s an app that enables a manager to see, based on progress or curriculum, how sales-ready a rep is before they deploy them to the field.
Glenn Mattson: Yeah, and sales-ready may be their competency, right? How well do they know this? How well do they have the competencies to own this? And if you look at a lot of the apps that are out there today, a lot of the apps are very similar in the context of pre-call plans, KPIs for a sales call. What are your must-haves? Here are the tactics that you need to uncover to do those. And that’s great. It’s the same as doing a pre-call plan previously. You know, if you take an airplane, you look at a pilot, they go through 35 steps or 50 steps before they take the plane off. And they do it every single time. And it’s written down. It’s never done by memory. When we go on sales calls, we wing it all the time. So when we take a look at a pre-call plan, it’s a great idea – paper, app, right? It’s the same mindset, it’s just done in higher tech, but it still goes back to if I have a pre-call plan, or if I have the ability, like you said, of sales-readiness. Which is pipeline management, which most people do an awful job at understanding how to really utilize a pipeline, they just throw a whole bunch of stuff in there to protect your job.
Andy Paul: Well, the sales readiness, in fairness, is a little bit different. Sales readiness is the individual, not the prospect. Is the individual ready to sell? The competency.
Glenn Mattson: Yeah, yep. So it’s a report card, in essence, of their ability to get out in the field. Which is great! And there’s a lot of apps out there that will record the actual sales calls. And you can pivot and push certain buttons to know when you did a certain move, so the manager can come back and really see it in Memorex versus being there. I mean, there’s great technology out there that help with the reinforcement. But going back to the core issue, unfortunately, most managers, when they see someone not knowing what to do, they automatically go to “this is how you do it,” which is the knowledge. The problem is, it’s not a knowledge problem. The individual chose not to utilize that skill in that situation because they were afraid, or they forgot to, or they forgot to because they panicked. When you panic, you do self-talk. When you do self-talk, you stop listening to anything but what’s inside your head. Right? So if you have those individuals that still have that, then now maybe your sales readiness will have the ability to prep that. But that piece of it is one of the biggest things that’s missing in the management, development, sales development, and really leadership. It’s that stickiness and that’s the reason that most training doesn’t work. Regardless of if it’s classroom, if it’s distant learning. I mean, we have a huge amount of clients that do distant learning with us and do other forms of technology with training, but it still comes back to the fundamentals of ‘will they actually apply it?’
Andy Paul: Got it. Okay, so I have one pet question I’m gonna ask, and then we’re gonna finish this part of the conversation and go to the last segment show. Why do reps still need to be reminded that it’s all about the customer?
Glenn Mattson: It’s interesting. So Sandler has a rule called being I-centered. And if you look at a salesperson’s developmental framework, and in my world, the third phase is that they’re a high-end producer. And a high end producer, to get there, has insulated themselves from fear of rejection and all those other things by really putting themselves almost in like a castle, right there in the middle of it. You have a moat around yourself and the moat is being I-centered. And that means that you’ve been down this road a lot. You’ve seen the same stuff. Why am I going to have to qualify somebody? I already know what their problems are, I know what the solutions are, so let me just tell it to him. And again, it’s being I-centered, right? So Andy, I’m going to turn around and say, “well, let me tell you what you should do.” Or “let me tell you what’s happening.” And they also start to turn around and say, especially if they’ve been successful, “what are you doing for me?” And that’s more towards the company. Right? I have value here. What are you doing for me? And their mindset is that the world revolves around them. They’re the sun, they’re that epicenter, right? That I-centeredness is the beginning, that unfortunately got them to be successful, but it’s also the major roadblock that holds them back from getting to the next level, which is really the ultimate salesperson. And you’re right, 70% of all your interviews, or all your sales calls, should be listening, not talking.
Andy Paul: Yeah, it’s funny, you’d think after all these years of sales that would be in the DNA of people that we hire, they should understand that. But anyway, that’s what keeps people like you employed. So I’m moving down to the last segment of the show where I’ve got standard questions I ask all my guests. And the first question is really a hypothetical scenario. And in the scenario, you, Glenn Mattson: , have just been hired as a VP of sales, at a company whose sales have stalled out. And the CEO, the board, they’re anxious to get sales back on track. And we know Rome wasn’t built in a day, sales doesn’t turn around a day, but you’re in charge. What two steps could you take your first week on the job that could have the biggest impact?
Glenn Mattson: Well, I think the first two steps are investigating what you did successfully and what’s changed in the marketplace. So if they were successful, either the market, yourself, the product – something’s happened that changed it. So the first really is investigative work. And the two places that I would investigate would be people and process. And when you take a look at the people, there’s obviously an awful lot there that you need to take a look at. But the process – it’s also inside processes, your sales process, your follow up, your marketing, your onboarding of clients. There’s a litany of other areas within process, but most problems I’ve ever had to uncover were historically in one of those two areas. Either why they’re not being as successful as they should be, or “how come we were knocking the cover off the ball, and now we’re not?” Usually those two areas are the areas I’d focus on at first.
Andy Paul: How did we lose the recipe?
Glenn Mattson: People think they’re smarter than they are.
Andy Paul: When I work with clients in advisory roles, that is oftentimes the problem. You know, I focus on companies that are sort of $100,000,000 and less that I work with, where CEOs bring me in. It’s like, “yeah, we were doing great, but I don’t know what happened.” And yeah, they’ve lost the recipe. They’ve stopped the focus on the fundamentals they need to really execute. So, good answer. Okay, so now I’ve got some rapid fire questions. You can give me one word answers or elaborate if you wish. The first one is: When you, Glenn Mattson: , are out selling your services, what’s your most powerful sales attribute?
Glenn Mattson: That’d be two things: my ears and my ability to ask the right questions.
Andy Paul: Excellent. Who’s your sales role model?
Glenn Mattson: I would probably turn around and say the mentor that started the business, David Sandler.
Andy Paul: So other than a Sandler book, what’s one book that every salesperson should read?
Glenn Mattson: Scripts People Live. It is written by Claude Steiner, who is a person that worked with Eric Byrne. I think one of the things that most people miss is understanding human dynamics, understanding people, when they sell, and that’s one of the most important pieces of sales. It’s attributes, it’s understanding people. And I think Scripts People Live is probably one of the best books. That’s an operational manual on human beings.
Andy Paul: Excellent. Okay. And last question for you: What music’s on your playlist?
Glenn Mattson: I’m an old school rock and roll guy. So I’m a late-60s, 70s, 80s, kind of guy with rock and roll.
Andy Paul: Give me an example.
Glenn Mattson: Everything from Skynyrd to AC/DC to Led Zeppelin.
Andy Paul: All right. I just want to hear that AC/DC that’s still on top of the list at, gosh, over 250 answers with that so far. That’s still the most popular. So, good. Well, Glenn Mattson: , I want to thank you for being on the show. It’s been great. Tell folks how they can find out more about you.
Glenn Mattson: You got it. Appreciate it, Andy. If you want to have more information about what we do and how we help companies achieve at least a 30 to 50% rate of increase on ROI, the two different areas you can try is the website, which is www.MattsonSandler.com. Or, obviously, you can call our office directly anytime you want to. It’s relatively easy, the prefix is 631 and it’s ‘Sandler,’ which numerically comes out (631) 726-3537. And as always, they can always email me at Glenn Mattson: firstname.lastname@example.org.
Andy Paul: Excellent. Again, thanks for being on the show. And remember, friends, make it a part of your day everyday to deliberately learn something new to help you accelerate your success. And one easy way to do that is to subscribe to this podcast, Accelerate! Make it a part of your daily routine whether you listen on your commute, in the gym, or as part of your morning sales meeting. That way you won’t miss any of my conversations with top business experts like my guest today, Glenn Mattson: Mattson, who shared his expertise on how to accelerate the growth of your sales. So thanks for joining. Until next time, this is Andy: Paul. Good selling everyone.
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